Playing with a Big Band

[Suspiria]

Zak is right. That is all that was ever said. Nothing more, nothing less.

[rafaeldm]

Hi, I started studying Ted Reed's Syncopation book today (Thanks DeeP_FRieD). I think reading will help me a lot not just to play the big band charts but to read and write anything I want.

[erskoman]

First off: Raf, welcome to the world of big band drumming. You're in for a lot of fun ... and, like many others have encouraged you to do, listen to as much of the classic recordings as you can: The Count Basie Band, Duke Ellington's band, the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis big band, as well as recordings by bands of any of the music you might be playing with the big band ... the best way to learn the language of any music is to listen to it.

* * * * * * * * *

Pardon my absence. I logged on a few times to follow the thread along its merry way (and stepped away from the computer, hence the apparently prolonged visit to HOD that was mentioned in a post); left the site each time rather bewildered ? was only trying to provide a bit of benefit of experience to the site and its visitors, and not raise a ruckus, with my late night post; I refrained from taking time away from the holidays with my family to respond until now.

That being said: if anyone here is familiar at all with my playing philosophy as well as instructional approach, they would know that I place the importance of FEEL and TIMEKEEPING at the very top of the list of desirable drumming qualities. And, of course, there are plenty of wonderful and inspiring examples of great swing playing, etc., played by drummers who didn?t read. That point seemed so obvious that I skipped over it, at my own peril. Apologies.

An aside: I heard a terrific educator speak a couple of months ago about the arts program at the school where he was acting as principal; and he said that, oftentimes, a disagreement in approach to one I pedagogical issue or another would most always be expressed as an ?either / or? proposition. His point: ?Hey folks, let?s use the word ?AND? instead of EITHER / OR? ? in other words, good swing is not mutually exclusive of being able to read, and vice-versa.

I think that many posts here are complementary in that we?re all in agreement that the music should be served first and foremost. Without good time, everything else is a moot point.

HOWEVER: a couple of notes about this animal (?big band?), which I will profess to knowing quite a bit about, as I played for 3 years non-stop with the Stan Kenton Orchestra (our first year-and-a-half out we got ten days off for the Christmas holidays; otherwise, we were constantly on the road), followed by 2 years with Maynard Ferguson, concerts and tours with Jaco Pastorius? big band, Bob Mintzer?s big band as well as Kenny Wheeler?s big band ? subbed for Mel Lewis several times with the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra when I was living in New York, and have played here in LA with the Pat Williams big band, Bill Holman?s big band, and Vince Mendoza?s big band; a cursory count of ?big band? albums at my website?s Discography adds up to more than 60 recordings with big bands ? in addition to working with quite a number of student big bands over the years ? and so on. I went on the road when I turned 18, and learned from some of the best as well as from some of the worst ? but it all added up to a pretty good education, nonetheless.

Enough of that! Just wanted to establish my credentials, in preparation to say the following: it?s quite simple, really ? because a big band is ?big? (i.e., the number of musicians), and because the literature is still expanding (thankfully), most opportunities to play with a big band will involve the participation of everyone READING. Why the drummer should be an exception to this process is a mystery to me, no matter who reads or doesn?t: past, present or future. And, if the idea is to enjoy the process, then the opportunity to play in a big band should be as accessible as possible to the aspiring or interested drummer. Dazzler and others have said it well: if the choice is between a drummer who can or read or one who cannot, the bandleader (or band director) might very well choose the other (reading-enabled) drummer.

My job as a teacher is to try to point out the ?best? way (often a subjective evaluation) for an aspiring or interested student to go: in other words, if a student expresses a wish to play something, but then proceeds in a manner that will ultimately provide him or her with difficulties, then it?s my responsibility to point that out ? and that?s all I was trying to do with my original post. Of course I did not cover every angle of the discussion, and I realize that I was taking on a tangent of the discussion (reading versus non-reading) which did not address the original question of the post; my mistake. But I could not understand, nor did I wish to stand idly by while it was being batted about, the prolonged debate over ?to read or not to read? as I understood it. Why not promote the point of view that it?s good to pay attention to timekeeping AS WELL as to your other responsibilities to the music ? which in the case of big band have always involved reading IN MY EXPERIENCE.

I mentioned in that post that I had just finished a pair of concerts with the Kenton Neophonic Orchestra ? a 40th anniversary event. The band had to learn a ton of music in a short amount of time. Luckily, the band enjoyed my time feel ? but, just as important, they thanked me for ?making it so comfortable,? ?made it so easy to play,? ?taking the guesswork out of all these rhythms? and ?serving everything up on a plate? ? in other words, simply being able to read and incorporating that information into the playing of the chart. I wouldn?t have wanted to ?fake it,? and besides, why fake it? Why not swing AND read? What?s the big deal or problem with that? Reading doesn?t mean to bury your head into the music, any more than being able to read a STOP sign doesn?t mean you would study that at the expense of all other data/stimuli while driving ?

Nothing wrong with being informed, and the ability to read is just that. Most any rhythm I?ve ever encountered in a big band chart is a simple one; a piece of music is an outline, a guide to what?s going on so the drummer can make informed choices and help to shape the music ? if you?re lucky enough to know the chart by ear/heart, then great. But if the conductor requests a cut between Letter C + E, I for one would be glad to have a piece of music handy ?

And, besides, the Dictionary describes ?illiterate? as ?being unable to read or write.? Why would anyone want to advocate or justify being musically illiterate? That?s all I was trying to express ? pardon the length of this post.

Sincerely,

Peter Erskine

[got_a_matchgrip]

I see where PE has last posted [pg 5], but it doesn't come up for me...WTheck?! [img]confused.gif[/img]

Edit: OK, my posting this did the trick [img]eek.gif[/img]

Thx, PE for your in depth response AW. Your valuable expertise & experience. Your resume AWA playg has always spoken for itself.

I think with that we can all put this baby to bed. Good points had by all. Any other additions would be absolutley ridiculous. If anyone doesn't "get it" by now, it's utterly futile & no point in furthering. We should all understand where this has gone & is going long b4 now. Anything more would be utterly laughable, & would only serve to say, "see, I told you so, nyaahh." [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] Don't even bother. If any one feels vindicated, great; & then just leave it at that. No use the need for displaying it. *Phew.*

Peace. [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 31, 2005 05:39 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[Steve Holmes]

I for one couldn't ask for a better response, or from a better source. Thanks for sharing Peter! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 31, 2005 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

[zmorton]

But Fuse we haven't got an answer on what chopping wood is yet! The thread must live on! HAHA! Sorry... had to do it.

[Dazzler]

Peter - [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/music.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 31, 2005 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>

[Gary Husband]

Peter, just need to tell you, that was one amazing post man!

You nailed it.

Respect!!!

For anyone under any doubts here, Peter Erskine pretty much nailed it all as best as it could be by anyone, as far as I'm concerned, right there!


Best as always to you,


Gary Husband

[Groovesmitty]

Mr. Erskine,
Nailed is the best way to describe it. Thanks so much for information that would have costed us the fee of a lesson. Of course, I have it saved on my PC.
Thank you for your knowledge, but most of all, thank you for taking the time out to address this.

[Flarobstix]

If you don't mind, I'll have that post framed.
:-)